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Post by DandF on Mar 19, 2004 8:17:58 GMT -5
The Senate is reviewing your case, and will have an answer for you within one week. Having read the rules of the "NPO" (what does the NPO do?) I feel I have been treated unjustly. I added endorsements to nations with high political freedoms and civil rights (two qualities my country feels strongly about) as a show of support. I never once asked any nations for an endorsement in return, they did so of their own free will. If a nation had not wanted my endorsement, they could have wired me a telegram asking me to remove it and I would have gladly complied.... I see also that one of the rules is to not add endorsements to unfamiliar nations. Is not every nation an unfamiliar one to a newly founded nation? And why is your current delegate above these rules? Please to note; I am not questioning the capability of your current delegate, it is meerly intended as a ...question. As evidence, I quote from my telegram inbox: The Forward Momentum of Francos Spain Received: 16 days ago Neighbor, I have given you my endorsement as a show of support. Would you kindly endorse me back? Was I not an unfamiliar nation? And did your current delegate not ask me for a return endorsement? I find your rules baffling at best, and discriminatory against new nations and those who aspire to be a delegate (note: I have no interest in gaining the delegacy. Like I said, I added endorsements purely as a show of support, just like your current delegate).
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Post by Warrior Thorin on Mar 19, 2004 9:42:36 GMT -5
The NPO is the government of the Pacific. It is here to sustain the growth of all of our great nations and to preserve the peace. You should be familar with the NPO. As a new nation, you should pay attention to the World Factbook of the region that you live in.
Francos Spain, our benevolent emperor, endorsed you for several reasons. One, he recognized you as a new nation. Two, his gracious endorsement of you also provides direction for you: you should know who your delegate is! Overall, if you had avoided reading the world factbook, you should have asked yourself "who is this person endorsing me?" and you would have found out it was YOUR DELEGATE!
The Civil Code in this region has permitted us a great deal of stability that has permitted all of our nations to prosper. If you are indeed a new nation, you would see that so many other regions where there is no stability are absolutely volatile and not fun. Thus, the NPO asks us to take responsibility in endorsements. You should ask everyone who endorses you who they are. When you fail to do this, I believe it is inevitable that you will strengthen those who oppose us.
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Post by DandF on Mar 19, 2004 11:16:16 GMT -5
The NPO is the government of the Pacific. It is here to sustain the growth of all of our great nations and to preserve the peace. You should be familar with the NPO. As a new nation, you should pay attention to the World Factbook of the region that you live in. Francos Spain, our benevolent emperor, endorsed you for several reasons. One, he recognized you as a new nation. Two, his gracious endorsement of you also provides direction for you: you should know who your delegate is! Overall, if you had avoided reading the world factbook, you should have asked yourself "who is this person endorsing me?" and you would have found out it was YOUR DELEGATE! The Civil Code in this region has permitted us a great deal of stability that has permitted all of our nations to prosper. If you are indeed a new nation, you would see that so many other regions where there is no stability are absolutely volatile and not fun. Thus, the NPO asks us to take responsibility in endorsements. You should ask everyone who endorses you who they are. When you fail to do this, I believe it is inevitable that you will strengthen those who oppose us. I read the world factbook... I know who the delegate is thanks to "UN Delegate: The Forward Momentum of Francos Spain." Whether he does a good job, or is 'benevolent' I have yet to see. My main complaint is how democracy and freedom of speech are restricted by your 'civil code'. Naturally, having an ordered region is a good thing, don't confuse me as an anarchist of any sort. The main principles of democracy are: A) The people ruling. B) Able to get rid of a government you do not like by voting in someone else. By evicting anyone who threatens to take power from the current delegate this is a dictatorship. Lots of nations in the game are dictatorships, you might say, but this does not affect me. If the region is run like a dictatorship then this does affect me directly. I believe that by bringing democracy and freedom of speech back to the pacific it would be beneficial for every Pacific nation. If the current delegate is doing a good job, fair enough, the people shall keep him/her in power. But they should also have the freedom to vote others in power as they see fit without it being considered "treason" or insurrection. That is my problem with the current way the pacific is run, and one we could easily fix by abolishing parts of the 'civil code', for benefit of all nations. I will tell you which parts of the civil code should be abolished: Change these and the pacific would be a truly free region, but with order, as 'spammers' and such would still be banned. Kthanxbye.
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Post by Pierconium on Mar 19, 2004 17:24:52 GMT -5
The Civil Code is designed to protect the citizens of The Pacific. If you do not value this protection then perhaps you should consider moving elsewhere in the NS world. Perhaps after some time outside of The Pacific you will see what a true benefit it is to the nations here to have the Civil Code and our benevolent Delegate, Francos Spain.
As you can see if you take the time to read the forum in a little more detail. The people of The Pacific are free to choose. They could unendorse Francos Spain at any time. They don't because they know the NPO is the best way. It is safe and secure and allows much freedom.
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Post by Brezhnev on Mar 19, 2004 17:40:40 GMT -5
As a new player, you might want to keep in mind that NationStates isn't RealLife, so have fun and don't take it too seriously.
When you clicked the checkbox, you "signed" a RealLife agreement. Things that happen in-game are left almost completely open-ended by the game moderators. The biggest exception is invading (a group who moves into a region to take it over) which is NS-legal, but heavily regulated (read the Moderation Forum).
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Post by DandF on Mar 19, 2004 18:59:45 GMT -5
The Civil Code is designed to protect the citizens of The Pacific. If you do not value this protection then perhaps you should consider moving elsewhere in the NS world. Perhaps after some time outside of The Pacific you will see what a true benefit it is to the nations here to have the Civil Code and our benevolent Delegate, Francos Spain. As you can see if you take the time to read the forum in a little more detail. The people of The Pacific are free to choose. They could unendorse Francos Spain at any time. They don't because they know the NPO is the best way. It is safe and secure and allows much freedom. If it's that safe and secure, and Francos Spain is such a good leader, surely there would be nothing to worry about anyway from bringing democracy to the Pacific? And how is a new nation supposed to be familiar with other regions?! I'm hardly familiar with the Pacific, never mind other regions. The "If you don't like it, leave." arguement has never held much sway with me. It's like, say, buying a house with a color of wallpaper you do not like. By this logic you would search for a house until it had the right wallpaper. This, of course, is foolish. Why not stay and improve things where you are. @brezhnev RP can be fun for those who chose to o it, having seen a little on the "NationStates" forum. However, why should I (and other new nations) be subject to RP rules they never agreed to? It goes outside the realms of role-play into the realms of the "actual" rules. I did nothing wrong, why should I be cast out according to a set of role-playing code? EDIT: I apologise for the frankness of my statements, however I am only stating my mind and what I believe is the best course of action. Thankyou.
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Post by Pierconium on Mar 19, 2004 23:08:49 GMT -5
There are in fact several levels of democracy here in The Pacific. We have a Senate that is representative of the nations here. We have Regional Governors that have been elected by the Senate to maintain specific sections of the population.
In fact, every region in NS that is founderless (like The Pacific) is democratic at it's core. Francos Spain is our Delegate because the people of this region have selected him to be. He has the support of the natives here. Many have rallied to his defense in times of strife and invasion. If he was not a benevolent, elected Delegate then he wouldn't have the position. One of the many, many invasions that various groups have launched on this region would have toppled him easily.
Before you start making claims to bring democracy to The Pacific you need to realize that it is already here. Francos Spain has the largest number of democratically given endorsements, therefore he is our Delegate. It doesn't get any more free than that.
If the people didn't want him, they wouldn't have him...it is just that simple. This is a statement of fact that many regions and nations outside of The Pacific should take to heart.
Francos Spain has been chosen by the people of The Pacific. The NPO is the democratically supported government of The Pacific. Those are facts...just because it doesn't fit your very narrow view and definition doesn't change it.
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Post by DandF on Mar 20, 2004 12:55:15 GMT -5
There are in fact several levels of democracy here in The Pacific. We have a Senate that is representative of the nations here. We have Regional Governors that have been elected by the Senate to maintain specific sections of the population. In fact, every region in NS that is founderless (like The Pacific) is democratic at it's core. Francos Spain is our Delegate because the people of this region have selected him to be. He has the support of the natives here. Many have rallied to his defense in times of strife and invasion. If he was not a benevolent, elected Delegate then he wouldn't have the position. One of the many, many invasions that various groups have launched on this region would have toppled him easily. Before you start making claims to bring democracy to The Pacific you need to realize that it is already here. Francos Spain has the largest number of democratically given endorsements, therefore he is our Delegate. It doesn't get any more free than that. If the people didn't want him, they wouldn't have him...it is just that simple. This is a statement of fact that many regions and nations outside of The Pacific should take to heart. Francos Spain has been chosen by the people of The Pacific. The NPO is the democratically supported government of The Pacific. Those are facts...just because it doesn't fit your very narrow view and definition doesn't change it. Oh dear. The people of the Pacific have no alternative but Francos Spain, since having more than 40 endorsements (whether you seek them or not) is considered "treason". You say that the people could unendorse Francos Spain at any time - this is true, of course, but realistically how many of his endorsers know what he stands for? I certainly did not know his true nature when I added my endorsement (thinking, since he had good civil rights and so on that he would be bwest to represent me - the very definition of the word delegate). Perhaps if he included a copy of the 'civil code' in his 'telegram of support' hapless newbies like I was would be less willing to add their endorsement? But you are right. The Pacific is a democracy. It is a one party system in the purest sense.I also do not apriciate your insults. I am meerly expressing my point of view. If you do not agree with it, fine. But there is no need for you to say things like "Before you start making claims to bring democracy to The Pacific..." And "Those are facts...just because it doesn't fit your very narrow view and definition doesn't change it" It does not help your cause.
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Post by Pierconium on Mar 20, 2004 23:28:10 GMT -5
I believe you need to look up the definition of insult before posting. It is not my cause that needs support here.
You claim that you were ignorant of the laws of The Pacific and the layout of our NPO governmental system.
Well ignorance is not bliss and is not an excuse...you obviously, from the posts you are making here, have been consulting with subversive forces and have most assuredly been well placed within The Rejected Realms.
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Post by Black Adder on Mar 21, 2004 0:36:31 GMT -5
But you are right. The Pacific is a democracy. It is a one party system in the purest sense.. Democracy is a system that doesn't work very well to hackney Churchill. We have never made a pretense to appear to be democratic. This is indeed a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one with some democratic rights at a lower level. This is the NPO. Stability, Peace. It comes at a price. That price is surrendering your freedoms at the highest level to Comrade Franco. If this isn't to your liking there's plenty of other regions who do pretend to practise Democratic principles. No exit visas are required to leave the Pacific. When you do leave to try and fulfill your political aspirations you will realize these regions maintain power in the hands of a select few. You will be required to prostrate yourself in fealty to this select group holding power in order to try and move your way up. You will find little free speech when it comes to criticizing official policy and they will use their constitutions to crush you, and then eject you as an enemy. All cloaked in the blanket of respectibility since it was 'democratic'. The rules we have are simple. We make no apologies. If you feel sorely used it is unfortunate. I'm sure if you really wish to make amends and continue with the NPO appealing directly to the Senate may be of some assistance. You trangressed rules which were made to protect the NPO. Ignorance of the law unfortunately is no excuse. I wish you well but keep in mind this nugget of advice. Arguing the rule is wrong gets you nowhere, the rule is not wrong, it will not be changed. If you wish to make progress in re admittance accept the wrong committed and make amends. Trust me, we are far, FAR more civilized in our application of 'Justice' than you will find in the majority of other regions. Good Luck.
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Post by mussolandia on Mar 21, 2004 10:15:51 GMT -5
I agree with DandF in the sense that this is a one-party state. But that does not mean, in any sense, that it does not represent the people of the Pacific. No former administration (excuse me for the use of this word, for it does not seem befitting to the actions and systems of former delegates) has contributed to the Pacific as much as the NPO has.
It has established a firm set of rules which have helped to allow NationStates follow its original purpose: the creation of countries and the shaping of political reality in an imagianry world. Spammers are dealt with, as are other agitators.
It has created government bodies and institutions of justice which, unlike all other regions with "constitutions" (namely the West Pacific), exist to defend the laws of the region. It does not pledge to defend democracy while backstabbing it by constructing oligarchical governments, as Black Adder noted.
You can see it everywhere around this forum: the communal puppet, the tabloids... The NPO is entertaining, productive and above all, truthful to its own ideals.
This is my case.
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Post by DandF on Mar 21, 2004 12:46:12 GMT -5
Thankyou for your responses.
Of course ignorance of the law is no excuse. But the laws here are questionable at best.
Should the current delegate be the best representative of the nations of the Pacific region; fair enough.
BUT
Say, for example, that I as a nation was unhappy with the way the Pacific was being run. I (or another nation) decide to stand for delegate. A manifesto is posted on the civil HQ and telegrammed to nations of what I stand for, say, "no spamming and no flaming." I add my endorsement to newcomers and established nations alike, explaining that if they do not agree with my policies they need not endorse me. Likewise, if the want an endorsement removed; I would do it.
Now, according to the 'civil code' this would be treason, insurrection, and all sorts of things. Yet if I was elected into the delegates seat would that not be representative of the people? How far would I go? We would never find out how far people supported me because I would be kicked out long before I could gain delegacy, no matter how many endorsements I recieved off people.
If I may be so frank I will say that the civil code is only a way for the current delegate to keep power, and has nothing to do with 'order'. On what grounds do I base these hefty accusations? I have been in the Rejected Realms some time now, and as such I occaisionally visit the civil HQ. It is the same as the Pacific HQ I look at. The same 'Come to region XXX' the same 'U guys r gay', it is the same. I also have recieved no telegrams whatsoever about endorsements, which seems to be a bane of the Pacific if the civil code were to be believed (exept for your delegate, I never got a telegram about endorsements in the Pacific either).
Please note: that was a hypothetical situation. I do NOT intend to become delegate of the Pacific by any means.
I also am not bothered should the current delegate lose his seat, nor do I want the forum to be changed. All I am concerned with is changing the civil code to be more fair.
Thankyou for your time.
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Post by Black Adder on Mar 21, 2004 13:30:22 GMT -5
Interesting view. Please do not take this as an invite to debate the matter further because it is not.
The long and short of it is this. Endorsement swapping is forbidden. No debate allowed. I support this. Reason being we do not have the neverending Pretenders and Turks in the Hall wishing to be the next delegate destabilizing the political landscape. We have order. We have stability. The only people who will ever gain power post in here. We know who they are. We know how they think.
If you think for a moment any other region will allow you to harvest endorsements unquestioned you are sorely mistaken. You will be viewed as a threat by the powers who be. They will use their 'constitutions' to crush you. They will eject you. And there will be no outcry because the residents will be cowed into thinking its a fair system because their law says it is. Nonsense.
Of all the regions in the game we are the only ones who recognize the true nature of power and accept that without trying to sugarcoat it. Should the day come when the Senate drifts away there will be new Senators appointed. It will run smoothly. Universal suffrage is overrated because frankly most of the people who have the vote wouldn't know what to do with it. They vote for style and not substance. If you doubt me look at the current American election. A farce of incredible proportions between two different Patrician factions. Art imitates Life. Life imitates art.
I've seen personalities rise and fall in this game. I see their ruined visages dotting the landscape like the angry brow of Ozymandias. End result? This game is not democratic. The rules set by moderation do not reinforce this concept nor have they ever. The rules are what they are. Arguing will not enlighten us, we've heard countless arguments before detailing the same points. Arguing will harden us against any sympathy you may possibly garner. The rule is right. The rule is correct. The rule has enabled us to stand against the rabble who would overthrow the order we enjoy and have instilled. You can still honor those you respect without a public show of endorsement, how else do the rest of us who have refused UN membership do so?
Accept the wrong you've committed. There's no shame in admitting that. If you cannot find the voice to do so and still maintain you have the right to use your endorsement power as you see fit I'm afraid we have very fundamental differences and wish you well in your future endeavors. Unfortunately they will not occur under the umbrella of protection that is the NPO without some attempt at reconciliation from you. Best wishes.
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Post by DandF on Mar 21, 2004 15:02:56 GMT -5
I have committed no wrong. I will accept nothing. Your rules are unfair. They have nothing to do with order, they are designed to keep Francos Spain in power. That is the truth.
How does having more than 40 endorsements affect these boards? Simple answer, they don't. If you're going to keep order on the boards - fine, do it using board rules. But keep it out of the regular game of NationStates.
You bring up the point of endorsement swapping. Is this not what Francos Spain is doing? Why is he above the law? Perhaps because he wrote it, I'm not sure. In the situation I described, the nation would NOT be endorsement swapping because he asks for nothing in return.
That is the crime of the civil code. It is discriminatory, hypocritical and a device to keep the government in power.
The government I have no problem with. If you truly do keep order in the Pacific others would have no problem with you staying in power without the civil code to oppress those who speak out against it, or gain endorsements. That is the beauty of democracy, it is also my case.
Good day.
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Post by Black Adder on Mar 21, 2004 19:36:37 GMT -5
*smile*
The Democracy you speak of is a foul lie. Much like telling children if they're good Santa will reward them. Its a myth. Cling to your idealism, its refreshing. Don't let it crush you when the papier mache Mephistopheles that is the Democratic Ideal starts to show its frailty and holes.
Fair thee well Laddie. I hope you find the Nirvana you seek. I've been all over the game and its not anywhere.
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