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Post by Galaisa on Aug 22, 2004 9:51:50 GMT -5
How would we hold elections? I'm really curious about how you would go about establishing a democracy.
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Danitoria
Serf
Delegate of the Allied States of EuroIslanders
Posts: 1
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Post by Danitoria on Aug 22, 2004 10:12:16 GMT -5
ASE were reluctant to irritate their relations with the ADN in addition to the fact we're generally regarded as not being nice. You simplify a reason unfairly. Since we're so awful justify for me if you would the ADN's policy of threatening their own membership for maintaining relations with 'declared enemies' such as ourselves and USSR? It seems to me that an organization that is so morally in the right would have no need to keep us away from the rank and file or is communication to try and stabilize the world unnecessary? It appears the ADN are more interested in elevating tensions than trying to work peacefully. Just thought I'd comment on this... The ASE of course has many diverse (and often opposing) views when it comes to the NPO. If the majority of members were in favour of increased relations, then I’m sure it would happen. It is not just uneasiness regarding a perceived reaction from the ADN. I'm sure there is a contingent of members, who are simply opposed to the political system employed in the Pacific, and I’m sure there are those who have no qualms regarding said system, so I can only speak for myself, but here goes: While I am disaffected with the general atmosphere of the ADN, and find myself opposed to many aspects of their administration (surely proof enough that it is not a factor in any decision regarding foreign relations!) they have proven to be useful associates. Quite simply, my decision to resist Unlimited’s suggestion had less to do with the reaction of some of our more "No-PO" comrades, although that was a factor, and more to do with balancing the merit of any change of alignment. As I stated at the time (even ignoring the ADN-proper for a moment and just focusing on those regions we have direct treaties with) there was and IMO is no material benefit even conceivably worth jeopardising what have proven to be generally profitable partnerships. It must be said, the ADN and the NPO seem pretty entrenched in their positions. *shrug*
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Defaultia
Liege
The enemy of the enemy of democracy
Posts: 13
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Post by Defaultia on Aug 22, 2004 10:25:17 GMT -5
How would we hold elections? I'm really curious about how you would go about establishing a democracy. Well, you should start with an "Elections" board. There, you'd put threads for people who want to challenge each Senate seat. Then, make a poll for each Senate seat. Sounds simple enough. And the radical policy change in the North Pacific was going from democracy to dictatorship. It didn't last because North Pacificians wanted democracy, not dictatorship. It was an unpopular change. The sentiment I've recieved is that, except for Black Adder, you guys don't do democracy because the ADN wants you to do it.
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Post by RedCommunist on Aug 22, 2004 10:51:25 GMT -5
Even if that was true, I'd support being in a dictatorship just to piss off the ADN.
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Post by Selladan on Aug 22, 2004 11:16:57 GMT -5
I do believe Senators should be appointed, but I think elected delegates would be better. Just my point of view, don't yell at me!
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Unlimited
Senator / Pacific Surveyor of Foreign Threat
Vanguard of the Pacific Revolution
Posts: 694
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Post by Unlimited on Aug 22, 2004 11:21:15 GMT -5
Well, you should start with an "Elections" board. There, you'd put threads for people who want to challenge each Senate seat. Then, make a poll for each Senate seat. Sounds simple enough. And how many ADN agents will be standing? The senate system has lasted nearly a year, through the best of times, and through the worst. It has brought Strength and Prosperity; unfortunately you seem unwilling to let us have our Peace. I would add, that if this were a government copying those oh so "enlightened" ways of the ADN, we would not even have reached an election yet, as they only come once a year. Your democracy is a farce, used for nothing more than to claim moral high ground over us, apparently, lesser beings.
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Defaultia
Liege
The enemy of the enemy of democracy
Posts: 13
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Post by Defaultia on Aug 22, 2004 11:37:51 GMT -5
And how many ADN agents will be standing? The senate system has lasted nearly a year, through the best of times, and through the worst. It has brought Strength and Prosperity; unfortunately you seem unwilling to let us have our Peace. I would add, that if this were a government copying those oh so "enlightened" ways of the ADN, we would not even have reached an election yet, as they only come once a year. Your democracy is a farce, used for nothing more than to claim moral high ground over us, apparently, lesser beings. As I said, if your Senators are so popular, than they would be re-elected. One-year election terms was a mistake. Most of us want shorter election terms. We're on our way to reforming them. You guys are not lesser beings, you just have the wrong system of government. The ADN consitution was a mistake, and I'd go with crazygirl to burn it and get a new one. It would be a better idea to adapt a better-written constitution like that of Equilism or the ASE to your system of government. At least give more power to the people.
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Unlimited
Senator / Pacific Surveyor of Foreign Threat
Vanguard of the Pacific Revolution
Posts: 694
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Post by Unlimited on Aug 22, 2004 11:42:16 GMT -5
You say your system is a mistake; that you'd like to burn it and start over. But you still spend all your energy thinking up ways to destroy the NPO and impose that system here? I guess I'll never quite understand the ADN.
How about this, we'll sort out our government, and you can sort out yours?
The Brits said it, the Nazi's said it, the Soviets said it, the Americans say it, and now you've said it.
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Post by RedCommunist on Aug 22, 2004 12:12:06 GMT -5
What makes you right and us wrong? What makes us right and you wrong? You can't put opinion into a statement of what you call facts. I agree you don't think we are lesser beings, just children.
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Post by Selladan on Aug 22, 2004 12:13:22 GMT -5
He's just suggesting a more user-friendly government.
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Post by Galaisa on Aug 22, 2004 12:35:21 GMT -5
So what you're saying is we start an elections board so narrow minded people like you can steal spots in the government. I think if you truly support a working government you need to work with the existing government for change not against it thats terrorism. The NPO appoints its senators based on their participation in the forums, and their record in nationstates. Personally I have seen the so called election boards on the forums in other regions and It seems all too easy to make things go your way. If the delegate doesnt have a reliable senate it is unlikely he can stay in the position for very long and seeing how many people are intent on invading this region there may never be a delegate in the Pacific again. As for letting everyone have their say thats what the forums are for, ideas and debate. Everyone Is allowed to have their say even those who oppose the views of the government. Their ideas are heard by the members of government and their suggestions taken for what they're worth. With time and dedication I believe you can gain a position in government and by that time you also gain a respectable understanding of the game. A game cannot be run by inexperienced players and by creating certain rules that limit who can be in the government the NPO ensures that its members are represented by a dedicated and experienced group of individuals rather then a group of people who are only there because they could find a way to manipulate an internet poll. Thats just my take on things I'm open to your ideas and I hope you will comment on mine. Thanks for reading my rant
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Post by Black Adder on Aug 22, 2004 12:44:04 GMT -5
Problem with user friendly government is manifold in this game rules set. Puppets are hard to distinguish, residency is over many regions and influenced heavily by outside forces. You want proof of this watch who comes circling whenever we establish contact with a new region.
The game is not properly set up to deal with a true democracy one man one vote scenario. To even try and put that in a Feeder region you're dooming the whole enterprise to disaster. Lets take a scenario like the Meritocracy, a region of self proclaimed elite. Every nation in that has other interests outside the Meritocracy in other regions. Some multiple regions. Much of what goes on in there is influenced by events out here, there is no way around it. Who do they owe their allegiances to? Meritocracy or home region? ADN? Is there going to be a free election or impartial action decided on in there? No. Were it not for the fact no one can dictate policy by law they would have been torn apart long ago. In the framework of this game allowing multiple puppets its impossible to get a true scenario where people are acting in the truest sense for the region at all times. Their puppets are acting on information gained elsewhere not meant for use in that sense. This is especially true in the feeders.
There must be a benevolent dictatorship to keep the course everywhere and there is. All the Pacifics have a dictator in place. All approach the same way, if an undeclared gains too close to the point of power they are dealt with. Rightfully so, an endorsement is not a vote and was never meant to be or else we'd have ONE. We are more vigilant because we are under constant attack. Were the SP or the WP to endure the same amount of intrigue as we they would have comparable ban lists no question. Democracy is a nice idea for a feeder but that's where it ends, the game was not designed to support it. We have taken the way it was designed and created a sense of order which everyone else picked up on in retrospect. It is obviously efficient and well crafted since we are still here DESPITE the massive efforts from the outside where they have no business exerting pressure.
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Post by Brezhnev on Aug 22, 2004 12:52:20 GMT -5
I'm afraid the credit goes to Defaultia for bringing up that two threads down. I just wondered if he still believed it .
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Post by RedCommunist on Aug 22, 2004 13:25:29 GMT -5
Idea: How about the ADN gives the NPO all the IP's of everyone on their boards, and the Merit does likewise. Then allow free elections where only real NPO nations can vote and be elected. I doubt they will do that, yet they will keep bitching that the NPO needs to be more democratic.
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Sir Paul
Senator / Director of the Pacific Press
This is PNN
Posts: 617
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Post by Sir Paul on Aug 22, 2004 13:58:27 GMT -5
And the radical policy change in the North Pacific was going from democracy to dictatorship. It didn't last because North Pacificians wanted democracy, not dictatorship. It was an unpopular change. So, if the Pacific wanted democracy, we would have it, and there would be nothing we could do to stop it. It seems the only people who want democracy at a high level in our government are outsiders.
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