Defaultia
Liege
The enemy of the enemy of democracy
Posts: 13
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Post by Defaultia on Aug 22, 2004 7:08:06 GMT -5
Why doesn't the NPO hold elections for Senators?
From what I hear, the people like the NPO. If that's true, then they should have nothing to fear except better relations with the ADN, as many ADN members agree with me that a democratic NPO would be okay.
I will never accept the NPO as legitimate until/unless they hold elections. Much of the ADN shares this sentiment.
Take your pick.
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Post by Brezhnev on Aug 22, 2004 7:20:41 GMT -5
Why do we have to conform to what the ADN wants? Can't you accept that some regions (like this one) don't want the outsiders to come in and tell us what to do, how to do it, who should run it, and what to eat for breakfast? We're doing just fine without you, thank you very much. Why can't the ADN be content with dictatorizing the regions they already have and leave us in peace?
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Post by RedCommunist on Aug 22, 2004 7:43:27 GMT -5
What if the NPO doesn't want to be friendly with the ADN? As well it is really sad that the ADN asked the NPO to be more democratic while many ADN regions are more of dictatorships than the (Oligarchial) NPO.
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Defaultia
Liege
The enemy of the enemy of democracy
Posts: 13
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Post by Defaultia on Aug 22, 2004 7:46:36 GMT -5
You don't need to cater to the ADN's every whim. The ADN is a huge block of regions. Many people consider you illegitimate because you don't hold elections.
I will fight until this region is democratically-run.
The NPO may be a stable government, but at what cost?
At what price order? I'd take anarchy over the tyranny of groups such as the NPO.
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Post by Neandertron on Aug 22, 2004 7:54:15 GMT -5
It's fools like you who give the ADN a bad name and before you ask I'm not in the NPO nor do I support their methods but if you want someone to change you dont attack them with idle threats. one persons moaning wont make the NPO change their ways.
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Post by Galaisa on Aug 22, 2004 8:01:42 GMT -5
Democracy! Freedom! words that used to hold meaning. No longer as regions are invaded by an organization that has no control over its members. The ADN has become more like a plague of locusts then a democratic organization trying to destroying all that people have worked for.
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Defaultia
Liege
The enemy of the enemy of democracy
Posts: 13
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Post by Defaultia on Aug 22, 2004 8:02:58 GMT -5
You guys seeked relationships with the ASE--and had you been a democracy you could have gotten them.
Many a relationship you tried to seek but didn't get were lost because you were seen as illegitimate--but you wouldn't be had you been democratic.
Democracy can do nothing but help you.
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Post by Black Adder on Aug 22, 2004 8:07:19 GMT -5
We took the view a long time ago that Democracy doesn't necessarily land the best person into the position. More often than not it landed someone in the job who was active, not necessarily competant, and who had a nifty flag and/or Avatar. I remember reading a ACC training piece that stated the best way to garner endorsements was to have a fetching flag. Incredibly its true.
Senators are not elected they are appointed. Reasons are many. It allows the delegate to select the ones he feels are doing the best job and are the most capable. There's no sense of laying in wait to seize your opportunity to be delegate. Elections for such a position at this point or earlier would be diluted with individuals such as yourself or your ADN friends interfering here as they have done elsewhere. Democracy is a system that doesn't work very well. Not my quote - Churchill's.
Fight all you want against us. You're not the first and you won't be the last. Eventually you will all realize its fruitless then you can leave us alone or write bitter, jaded rants like Two Slit. Either way, we don't care what the ADN thinks about us. We do care how they are wandering across NS turning it into their vision of correctness by force.
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Post by Black Adder on Aug 22, 2004 8:17:26 GMT -5
You guys seeked relationships with the ASE--and had you been a democracy you could have gotten them. Many a relationship you tried to seek but didn't get were lost because you were seen as illegitimate--but you wouldn't be had you been democratic. Democracy can do nothing but help you. ASE's refusal to open diplomatic relations were more a result of ADN meddling than their feelings. ADN's judicial branch are forbidding membership to have relations with 'declared enemies'. This unique status is conferred upon a region after it has been tried within their own system without benefit of representation or input. To coin the vernacular in this instance- a Kangaroo court which holds no authority in reality yet has the power to make horrible decisions. ASE were reluctant to irritate their relations with the ADN in addition to the fact we're generally regarded as not being nice. You simplify a reason unfairly. Since we're so awful justify for me if you would the ADN's policy of threatening their own membership for maintaining relations with 'declared enemies' such as ourselves and USSR? It seems to me that an organization that is so morally in the right would have no need to keep us away from the rank and file or is communication to try and stabilize the world unnecessary? It appears the ADN are more interested in elevating tensions than trying to work peacefully.
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Post by RedCommunist on Aug 22, 2004 8:24:33 GMT -5
No one is free when there are those whom are oppressed.
You seek to make the NPO more democratic while you ignore the dictatorships in the ADN. I just you bitch and whine to those guys before you think you have a say elsewhere.
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Post by Brezhnev on Aug 22, 2004 8:28:30 GMT -5
"Take the plank out of your own eye before worrying about the grain in someone else's" -Somewhere in the bible, I don't remember where
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Post by Black Adder on Aug 22, 2004 8:37:11 GMT -5
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
Very Sunday debate, thanks for the start Brezhnev
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Post by Doppelganger on Aug 22, 2004 8:38:25 GMT -5
I will never accept the NPO as legitimate until/unless they hold elections. Much of the ADN shares this sentiment. Take your pick. Umm, so? Are we really supposed to care that the ADN or whiners like yourself don't approve of how we run things? The ADN is disgusting. They're so arrogant that they believe that their viewpoint on the NationStates world is the only "legitimate" viewpoint to have. Eh, for Black Adders sake, I won't speak my mind any further.....
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Defaultia
Liege
The enemy of the enemy of democracy
Posts: 13
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Post by Defaultia on Aug 22, 2004 8:57:36 GMT -5
Brezhnev, I come from a region where there is democracy.
The other feeder regions are democratic.
20% of new nations start out in the Pacific. 20% of new nations don't start out in ADN regions which are dictatorships.
And Black Adder: The Churchhill quote went like this: "Democracy is the worst system of government except the ones that have already been tried." And I think that oligarchy had already been tried. But, anyways: Senators appointed by the Senators will only allow Senators who agree with the majority of the Senate to be chosen Senators appointed by the Delegate will only allow Senators who agree with the Delegate to be chosen. That means that one bad seed, or a few bad seeds, may be able to ruin the entire batch.
Since all the senators share the same views, it's similar to absolute power. And that corrupts absolutely.
At least with democracy there's some chance of those with opposing views to get in.
And you try to force your system of government on others, too. Like with the North Pacific.
And which regions in the ADN are dictatorships, so that I can convince them to have democracy?
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Post by Black Adder on Aug 22, 2004 9:25:02 GMT -5
Brezhnev, I come from a region where there is democracy. The other feeder regions are democratic. 20% of new nations start out in the Pacific. 20% of new nations don't start out in ADN regions which are dictatorships. And Black Adder: The Churchhill quote went like this: "Democracy is the worst system of government except the ones that have already been tried." And I think that oligarchy had already been tried. But, anyways: Senators appointed by the Senators will only allow Senators who agree with the majority of the Senate to be chosen Senators appointed by the Delegate will only allow Senators who agree with the Delegate to be chosen. That means that one bad seed, or a few bad seeds, may be able to ruin the entire batch. Since all the senators share the same views, it's similar to absolute power. And that corrupts absolutely. At least with democracy there's some chance of those with opposing views to get in. And you try to force your system of government on others, too. Like with the North Pacific. And which regions in the ADN are dictatorships, so that I can convince them to have democracy? Really? Name me ONE Pacific that had a new government that deviated radically from the policies of the previous one, wasn't affiliated with the previous one and survived past 30 days. NONE. When UPS Rail and Great Bight moved the NP away from an aggressive stance they all rallied and tried to crush them. You've all managed a fair bit of retro rewrite so far, you all wanted them until they said maybe we weren't so bad. The NPO did not start the troubles in the NP, the NP did by endorsing UPS Rail and Great Bight into those positions. There was no invasion. Give your head a shake, that was DEMOCRACY in action. Funny how you all resorted to evil Invader status when you didn't like the outcome. Please, do go to the ADN and try to convert those evil Oligarchies. I will be most amused when they crucify you above the front door.
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